Norwegian Launching OSL-FLL With B787 ? Civil Aviation Forum ...
Originally planned to be launched with ARN and CPH, but disagreement with the Norwegian aviation authorities over several issues lead to a postponed launch. Two weekly rotations out of FLL on Monday's and Fridays, leaving OSL on Tuesday's and Saturday's.
There are strong ties between Norway and Florida with especially the cruise market having the strongest demand from Norway among the Scandinavian countries. A reason obvious when you look at the original founding of NCCL and RCCL.
Service starts 30NOV13
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
Did OSL made a push towards attracting DY here, or was it just DY that had to make a statement towards the Norwegian government the announcement was "delayed"?
You make it sound like now FLLARN and FLLCPH aren't happening. They still are.
Oslo does not have the most demand by any means. It's only around 45 PDEW, compared to around 85 for ARN and 95 for CPH, and I simply find it hard to believe that reducing it to "cruise traffic" changes things.
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 2): You make it sound like now FLLARN and FLLCPH aren't happening
How are you able to read it that way?
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 2): Oslo does not have the most demand by any means. It's only around 45 PDEW, compared to around 85 for ARN and 95 for CPH
Not arguing the market from OSL is larger, but you cant see FLL as a separate destinastion. But look on southern Florida as a whole. And all of them (OSL, CPH and ARN) will have some degree of internal feed here as well
If you bother to read the press releases regarding Norwegians FLL operations you will see that it aims to serve the cruise market. Contracts have been signed with cruise lines and travel operators. Cruise traffic has an extraordinary strong position in the Norwegian market that is older and goes deeper than our Scandinavian neighbours.
If you google up the history of NCCL and RCCL, you will realise why. The reason why the cruise market from Norway is regarded as mature while our neighbours have a young growing demand.
The very strong ties between Norway and Florida through cruise traffic was one of the reason why Walt Disney choose a Norwegian branch in his Epcot centre in Florida.
Google up benchmarking about the Scandinavian cruise market and it will save you from future embarrassment!
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 2): You make it sound like now FLLARN and FLLCPH aren't happening. They still are.
That is exactly how I interpreted it as well. I read it as the Norwegean govt forbade DY to fly CPH/ARN-FLL so the decided to start OSL instead. Was about to say that goes against a few treaties.
Maybe start comment with in addition to next time to better interpretation. No disrespect or anything just some friendly advice ?
If you bother to read the press releases regarding Norwegians FLL operations you will see that it aims to serve the cruise market. Contracts have been signed with cruise lines and travel operators. Cruise traffic has an extraordinary strong position in the Norwegian market that is older and goes deeper than our Scandinavian neighbours.
If you google up the history of NCCL and RCCL, you will realise why. The reason why the cruise market from Norway is regarded as mature while our neighbours have a young growing demand.
The very strong ties between Norway and Florida through cruise traffic was one of the reason why Walt Disney choose a Norwegian branch in his Epcot centre in Florida.
Google up benchmarking about the Scandinavian cruise market and it will save you from future embarrassment!
I read it clearly. Oslo is half the size the market than CPH or ARN. That's a fact.
Norway wasn't chosen by Disney - the Norwegian government ponied up a very large amount of money to fund the pavilion.
I'm sure not embarrassed that I corrected your false, wrong and unsusbatanitaed information.
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6): I read it clearly. Oslo is half the size the market than CPH or ARN. That's a fact.
Must be quite a privilege of being always posting false statements and never reply on the references presenting the opposite?
According to the press released from FLL regarding Norwegian, Florida as a state receives almost 250.000 Scandinavians pr year.
From Norway. Florida as a whole is the second largest market after New York (larger than California)
Around 90.000 Norwegians visits Florida, most often in combination with arrival in New York.
According to Discover America, this is typical for the Scandinavian market where a significant amount of the passengers
travel by own and separate tickets to California and Florida from they port of entry. OSL separate thouse numbers, while other airports includes them.
Looking at the total numbers pr country, one could presume that it's more or less the same from Denmark and larger from Sweden. That ads up to the numbers presented by FLL airport and is not in line with your presentation.
From Norway, 74,1% of the traffic to the US originates from OSL. For Florida, the number is 74,0 exactly.
(source travel survey of 2009)
Official numbers for USA from Scandinavia are available from jan-oct 2012
Sweden 365.000
Denmark 239.000
Norway 229.00
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6): Norway wasn't chosen by Disney - the Norwegian government ponied up a very large amount of money to fund the pavilion.
No, that is not correct. The Norwegian government did never found the building. All Nordic countries where invited, but Norway ended up as the chosen one as they had support of foundlings through several companies and the cruise industry which then where in Norwegian ownership. The main reason and argument for the foundlings was because of the strong trade and tourism connections from Norway to Florida through shipping and the cruise industry. In fact the Norwegian part of Epcot remained in private overship until the end of the eighties.
The only involvement from Norwegian officials have been the running of the Norwegian info centre inside the pavilion.
Sometimes it's not a bad idea to search behind wikipedia's entrance of facts....
This services to all 3 airports will have all arguments of succeeding to FLL. However I highlighting the cruise market from Norway should come as a little surprise as it's a very strong market. Nothing different than describing Trade relations between Mexico and Denmark (which is largest by far in Scandinavia) and Sweden and China.
However the fact that the Norwegian cruise industry is so strongly anchored in the Norwegian market might not be much exposed outside of Norway.
Quoting sflaflight (Reply 5): That is exactly how I interpreted it as well. I read it as the Norwegean govt forbade DY to fly CPH/ARN-FLL so the decided to start OSL instead. Was about to say that goes against a few treaties.
My fault. It was never an intention to give that impression.
OSL was supposed to be launched as the same time as ARN and CPH.
However political pressure and issues with the airport authorities of Norway and OSL postponed the launch.
Excellent News and a smart move by Norwegian to cooperate With the cruisecompanies.
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6): I read it clearly. Oslo is half the size the market than CPH or ARN. That's a fact.
I'm sure not embarrassed that I corrected your false, wrong and unsusbatanitaed information.
Before going on the attack, you should make sure you've got your spelling correct, otherwise it makes you look not just mean and aggressive, but like a mean and aggressive idiot.
You do realize that English may not be the first language of the person who started the topic, and that something got lost in translation so to speak? Please try to be polite and cognizent of those factors before lashing out at someone.
Now, to the topic at hand. It's great that Norwegian is flying from even more cities to South Florida. If the new service attracts enough passengers from each city, we might be seeing 2x daily service from Scandinavia in a year or two.
Quoting g2scandinavia (Thread starter): Two weekly rotations out of FLL on Monday's and Fridays, leaving OSL on Tuesday's and Saturday's.
Is it just me, or do you also read this as the aircraft spending a lot of time on the ground in FLL?
Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 12): Is it just me, or do you also read this as the aircraft spending a lot of time on the ground in FLL?
No, because it is being used for the flights to ARN/CPH. I'm assuming the times are going to be identical to ARN/CPH, so:
OSL1445 ? 1930FLL
FLL2130 ? 1245+1OSL
On Tues the flight leaves OSL, arriving in FLL Tues evening. 2 hours later it turns around and flies to ARN, arriving Wed morning. On Wed there are no flights to FLL. On Thurs there is a flight from ARN. After 2 hours on the ground in FLL it turns around and flies to CPH, arriving Fri morning. Then on Fri from CPH there is a flight to FLL. After 2 hours on the ground at FLL the plane turns around and flies to OSL, arriving Sat morning. On Sat it flies back to FLL, spends 2 hours on the ground, then flies to ARN, arriving Sun morning. Sun it flies back to FLL, 2 hours on the ground, flies to CPH arriving Mon. Mon it flies to FLL, 2 hours on the ground, then the flight to OSL and the whole cycle repeats.
Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 12): Is it just me, or do you also read this as the aircraft spending a lot of time on the ground in FLL?
The same aircraft will also be used for rotations to ARN and CPH.
Norwegian will base the aircraft in FLL with US based Crew flying in and out of Scandinavia.
[Edited 2013-04-13 07:42:14]
Good news, now all three capitals vill have their own service to FLL
I still find it fascinating though, as to how OSL can get this route with a demand of 45 PDEW, when GOT-NYC is at 87. It was odd already at the launch of ARN-FLL, also with less demand.
And i know yields play a big role, which makes it even stranger as GOT-NYC should be higher yielding than the FLL routes that are mainly relying on leisure.
And yes, the capitals are hubs, attracting feed, but if the fact that 74% of the Florida-bound Norwegian pax originate in OSL, then feed from the rest of Norway shouldn't play that big of a role. GOT-NYC is still higher, only relying on itself.
Besides, routes to New York are slightly easier to sustain as year-around services, are they not?
Though I to some extent understand that DY want to expand the capitals as a first phase, atleast one of the coming Dreamliners should be based at GOT for a JFK (and BKK, with the same demand) service. If not, I would be wondering what Kj?s and the others are thinking with...
Norway did very well invest in the pavilion with the help of private investors. The government used to pay very hefty annual subsidies to Disney. And Norway was chosen because, here's a cool concept: it had the highest bid. Imagine that. To think it has anything to do with culture connections is insane. There aren't much to speak of. It is Finland that has strong cultural ties to Florida.
No point in arguing facts further. The good thing is Oslo finally has its scheduled Florida connection. Too bad Norwegian picked FLL, a mess of an airport with inadequate facilities, over MIA, but it's better than nothing.
[Edited 2013-04-13 12:29:27]
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 16): Too bad Norwegian picked FLL, a mess of an airport with inadequate facilities, over MIA, but it's better than nothing.
Oh come on, FLL is fine. If you really want to talk about a "mess of an airport" there's LGA and EWR.
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 16): Too bad Norwegian picked FLL, a mess of an airport with inadequate facilities, over MIA
You have to be joking...MIA is one of the worst transit airports in the US I have ever had the misfortune to go through. Never again.
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 16): My numbers are based on FY2011 MIDT O&D data. Your claim that Oslo is somehow a larger market is false, misleading and wrong.
First of all, you are presenting numbers that is not even been augmented for. For the fourth time in several threads, you are referred to numbers not even the airports are using as their own. There are several systems delivering booking numbers for costumers. However, they all use calibrated calculations to fill in pax numbers.
You refused to discuss this last time and I think that is a bad thing for your arguments.
I strongly advice you to do some cross reference on selected routes with presented numbers available and you will se that the numbers are incorrect. In fact airport such as OSL have considered making their own numbers available for these systems to secure the quality of the data. This is especially a problem for smaller airports depending on one or more stops to final destination.
It's a reason why airports do not use theese numbers!
Take for instance CPH. You are reporting 68.008 pax O&D.
On the other hand CPH reports 59.483 pax INCLUDING transfer pax through CPH. CPH/UK/B2B/Airlines/Top+25+-+Route+opportunities.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cph.dk/CPH/UK/B2B/Airlines/Top+25+-+Route+opportunities.htm
It's the same with the other 3 examples.
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 16): Norway did very well invest in the pavilion with the help of private investors. The government used to pay very hefty annual subsidies to Disney. And Norway was chosen because, here's a cool concept: it had the highest bid. Imagine that. To think it has anything to do with culture connections is insane. There aren't much to speak of. It is Finland that has strong cultural ties to Florida.
I'm impressed by your ability to refuse facts and available articles.
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 16): No point in arguing facts further. The good thing is Oslo finally has its scheduled Florida connection. Too bad Norwegian picked FLL, a mess of an airport with inadequate facilities, over MIA, but it's better than nothing.
Another proof of your absence towards an understanding of what this service is all about. It's to FLL because the route will serve the cruise lines with deals been made with most seats being sold in connections to cruises in and out of FLL and MIA.
Could I please ask for the quality of the discussion, you to lower your shoulders and try to read and discuss on what you disagree on in a civilized matter rather than bashing out statements.
[Edited 2013-04-13 13:09:59]
For the those who are interested. Here are some more facts about the Miami/FLL market from OSL.
Largest hubs for one stop connections: FRA: 33,8% CDG: 21.0% LHR: 18,9% EWR: 15,1% (to MCO its 46,4%)
Length of stay:
8-14 nights 38,8%
More than 14 nights: 52,5%
Average fare: 8.504 nok (1.492 dollars)
Purpose of stay (from Travel survey 2009)
Course, conference, convention or trade fair: 5,8%
Sales, purchasing or business negotiations: 1%
Contact with head office/subsidiary: 3,2%
Visit family/friends: 12,8%
Holiday, weekend trip, etc: 73,4%
Any word on what terminal/concourse they will use for departures? Wikipedia says 4-J. While this is obviously for arrivals, will it also be 4 for the departure as well? I cannot imagine a nightly (ex. wens.) 291 passenger 787 departure out of term 4 seeing how that terminal is busting at the seams with Spirit's evening banks of flights, the abysmally limited concessions, and one set of restrooms beyond security.
"Oh come on, FLL is fine. If you really want to talk about a "mess of an airport" there's LGA and EWR."
Have you even been through FLL lately? With B6,WN/FL, NK, DL, and US all having pretty significant operations, all the security checkpoints, concessions, and gate areas are typically overflowing. Plus the large amount on Intl. traffic siphoning through its horribly inadequate FIS facility, FLL is, I'm sure in most people's books "a mess of an airport". Sure, departure lines for aircraft aren't nearly as bad as LGA or EWR if that's what you are referring to because FLL (and most of South Florida's airports) have seemed to escape the influx of RJs that everywhere else in the US seems to see. Still, there are way too many passengers through FLLs aging facilities.
Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 19): Take for instance CPH. You are reporting 68.008 pax O&D.
On the other hand CPH reports 59.483 pax INCLUDING transfer pax through CPH. CPH/UK/B2B/Airlines/Top+25+-+Route+opportunities.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cph.dk/CPH/UK/B2B/Airlines/Top+25+-+Route+opportunities.htm
From the link you posted the data does not include transfer passengers from other airport... it is all CPH-originating passengers.
I'm not 100 percent sure but the list may only include CPH-MIA passengers and not FLL. MIDT data that MAH4546 uses lists MIA and FLL as one market.
Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 20):
For the those who are interested. Here are some more facts about the Miami/FLL market from OSL.
Largest hubs for one stop connections: FRA: 33,8% CDG: 21.0% LHR: 18,9% EWR: 15,1% (to MCO its 46,4%)
Length of stay:
8-14 nights 38,8%
More than 14 nights: 52,5%
Do you happen to have any exact numbers numbers from OSL-MIA/FLL passengers that may arrive in the US by NYC or MCO first that MIDT would not account for?
Example of this passenger:
1)A person flies OSL-EWR on SK or UA
2) Spends 2-3 days in NYC
3) Flies JFK/EWR-FLL on B6
4) Cruises Western Caribbean
5) Flies back to NYC on B6
6) 1/2 -2 days in NYC
7) Flies EWR-OSL on UA/SK
Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 23): From the link you posted the data does not include transfer passengers from other airport... it is all CPH-originating passengers.
No, it's included transfer numbers. CPH includes all current traffic including transfer and transit in their pax numbers. So does ARN and OSL as well. You can also see from the list on the link provided, that they presents the same numbers in total traffic.
25 nwa757boy: So will they be Norwegian citizens living in the US, or on temporary duty in the US or will they be USA citizens?
26 g2scandinavia: Numbers for Tampa, Fort Lauderdale and Miami are available. You are asking an interesting question. As i wrote earlier, Discover America's Scandinavi
27 g2scandinavia: The JFK and BKK services will be served by BKK based aircraft's and Thai Crew. As FLL will be a separate base, I presume it will be crewed by US citi
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